Louis Meyers Interview

Louis Jay Meyers

This is about one-third of an interview of the Executive Director of Folk Alliance that was recorded at Southwest Regional Folk Alliance (SWRFA) in October 2007.

“Do you think that our artists necessarily can compete one-on-one with the biggest stars of the day?... Have they done anything to move into that realm? You’ve got to reach out for the brass ring or else you don’t have a chance ... over the course of the last 40 years Folk music has developed somewhat of a chip on its shoulder. When an act does become famous and popular, all of a sudden they’re not Folk anymore. Somewhere along the way the words ‘starving’ and ‘Folk’ started to be used together, and that is what hurt the business more than any other single thing.”

FAF Folk musicians seem to pride themselves on resourcefulness, and they have become quite good at getting the word out for their concerts and CDs without spending much or any money at all on advertising. And, while that’s all very well and good, that’s sort of in stark contrast to Country bands and Rock bands and maybe Blues bands, who do buy regular ad space. I think that there are several repercussions to this modus operandi: a) Folkies only contact other folkies a lot of the time, and thus, through attrition, the circle gets smaller while the Country and Rock circles get larger; b) newspapers, magazines and other media outlets that cater to mainstream or broad access markets are passed up for advertising and press releases; and c) the end result of a) and b) is that newspapers balk at reporting on actual events, real coverage, where Folk musicians are the main event, because of no ad dollars and no obvious expressed public interest.

So, my question is, what is FA doing to combat this cycle, that really only drops Folk musicians even further beneath the radar of the average person?

LOUIS Well, for starters, I think your assessments are completely wrong. I think that our field is no different from any other field. The Punk Rock field, the Alt Rock field, the Alt Country field – anything that’s not a mainstream music form – is all promoting in the same way. Blues clubs do not promote any more than Folk clubs; Alternative Rock clubs do not promote any more or less than Folk clubs. We’re all secondary markets. Media is always going to pay attention ... if you’re on Warner Bros. records or Sony records, yes, you’re going to get more attention than the act that just put their own record out, regardless of the style of music that you play.

I believe that the outreach in the Folk community right now is the largest demographic in any alternative music style that’s out there, much more so than Blues and Rock because of the age demographic that’s being affected. I see our artists and Folk artists written up in all mainstream publications, Billboard and Rolling Stone, through everything, especially the crossover from the Punk market to the Folk market, which has gotten stronger and stronger every year.

So, to me, you’re wrong.

FAF When I was driving to Kerrville Folk Festival this year—actually I was passing through Taylor, Texas, and listening to NPR—they ran a story on how Folk music died in the 60s.

LOUIS So? Disco died in the 70s. Country died in the 80s. Rock music died in the 60s too according to most critics. But, you know, because those records aren’t on, because we don’t have as many Folk acts on major labels anymore? Because what’s considered Folk music is different than what [it] was in the 60s? Do you consider Dave Matthews Folk music? Do you consider Bruce Springsteen’s “Seeger Sessions” Folk music? Do you consider David Gray Folk music? Do you consider all of these singer songwriters that have been at the top of the charts for the last three years, the John Mayers, all these people, do you consider them Folk music?

The perception of Folk music is that it has to be alternative. In the 60s it wasn’t. Judy Collins, Peter, Paul & Mary, Simon & Garfunkel, Donovan: they were mainstream. They were the John Mayers and Dave Matthews and those type of acts of their time. There’s no difference. Are those acts of the 60s still viable? No. They don’t have major label deals to sell the quantity of records. But that’s a media problem. There is no MTV for those artists. There is no mainstream radio for those artists. There’s no bin space in Wal-Mart for those artists, because this is a commercially driven world now. And it was then too, it’s just that what was commercial then was Judy Collins and Peter, Paul & Mary, and artists that would be considered Folk music. And right now, the word Folk is not necessarily considered a Wal-Mart rack album, but that doesn’t mean that there’s not dozens and dozens of artists. This woman Feist that has the No. 1 record in the country: it is a pure Folk act. Whether anybody or even her will ever call herself a Folk act, who knows? But that doesn’t mean that it’s not. So, I think it’s more than perception, what’s considered Folk, more so than ‘Folk music is dying’. I think there are certainly more Folk venues than Blues or Jazz venues or Punk Rock venues. You don’t see house concerts and small clubs and church concerts for other types of music.

FAF So, the blurring of the line between what is Folk music and a lot of people calling themselves singer songwriters rather than folksingers, this has something to do with it?

LOUIS Whether they call it Folk Rock or Folk Country or Alt Folk or Anti-Folk; I mean, half of the reviews I see of the top modern artists have the word ‘Folk’ mentioned in the review. Not Folk in the tradition of a Burl Ives, but Folk in the tradition of what that has progressed into. Folk music, like all other music, progresses. Jazz music isn’t the same as it was in the 20s. There’s still people who can play it that way, but there’s also people who can take it into a modern time. Blues music is a perfect example. There’s no modern Blues that sounds like what Muddy Waters and Robert Johnson did. But that doesn’t mean it’s not Blues. Would you tell Charlie Musselwhite he’s not Blues because he doesn’t sound like Robert Johnson? So, all music progresses. Country music progresses. Certainly what’s selling today in Country music is radically different than what was selling 40 years ago.

So, I’m not big on titles. I think the word ‘Folk’ has been maligned by mainstream media, and even by alternative media.

FAF And why and how do you think that came about?

LOUIS Popular magazines wanted to sell more records and more copies. If you’re a publisher of a magazine and you think the word ‘Rock’ sells more copies than the word ‘Folk’, you’re going to use the word ‘Rock’, even if it’s describing a Folk act. You’re going to try to sell something that the consumer will buy. Every publication in the world has to think that way to survive, unfortunately. So it is very difficult: there’s music and there’s media, and the two don’t necessarily relate anymore.

FAF So, some of these people you named, like Dave Matthews for example: do you think he is connected with the people, that his music is a reflection of what the people are thinking, or do you think it is a reflection of what he is thinking?

LOUIS I think the people are ... reflection of what he is thinking. I think within the artist ... that person’s music.

FAF Do you think there was a time in Folk music when Folk musicians wrote for and were a reflection of what the people were thinking?

LOUIS Not at all. I think the people were a reflection of what the musicians were saying. It’s like politics. You go to the people you can relate to. That’s why we all don’t pray to the same politicians. We don’t all pray to the same musicians. One person may think Dylan is a genius; the next person may say, “I don’t understand a word he said.”

FAF So you don’t agree at all that down through the ages the musicians reflected and wrote for what the people ...

LOUIS All songs are observations, whether it’s of a person or the world around. That’s true for every style of music and always has been. That spoken word, that’s the whole basis of music.

FAF But are they a reflection of the people and the times, or of the musician himself and what he thinks?

LOUIS The end result is what the musician thinks, because they’re the ones putting out the product the people are buying and listening to, not the opposite way. It’s a reflection of the world in their opinion, and people who share that opinion and those values will flock to that person, exactly like they do politicians...

FAF And, in the 60s, the Folk musicians, and some of the Rock musicians too, of course, reflected the times by writing songs and singing songs that were a protest, a lot of protest songs.

LOUIS Reflected the times, not the people.

FAF Reflected the times, and what the people were going through.

LOUIS It was a reflection of the world around them, not of the people.

FAF But that was not a reflection of what they were personally going through unless, of course, they were drafted.

LOUIS Very rarely. Songwriters, as a whole, write from observation as much, probably more so than they write from personal experience, because you see a million times more things than you experience, whether it’s through the media or through day-to-day life.

FAF So do you think that the Folk singers are writing from the same general area in their lives and observations now that they were in the 60s?

LOUIS Well, a different era, but the same mentality. You mean, Folk singers or certain Folk singers? Everyone writes differently. I hear people every day that write about nothing but their own personal experiences. Then I hear another songwriter that writes about nothing but things that they observe. Do I think that one is any better or worse than the other? No, it’s which one writes better songs! And which one can deliver them better.

You’ve got to remember, there’s about 1% of the artists out there you’re ever going to hear, probably less. The quantity of artists nowadays, especially compared to the 60s, there’s, don’t even know [how] many more times artists and records out now than, say, 1965, compared to 2005, the difference is staggering. A record company or a radio station used to get maybe 10 to 20 records a week, and they could play them, albums. Now, they get hundreds of records per week, and they can’t play any of them ‘cause there’s somebody in another office working for some media conglomerate telling them what they have to play: “People in Chicago love Van Halen, go with Van Halen across the country.”

FAF This a problem.

LOUIS It’s been a problem for years. It’s been a problem since the 70s, once radio became corporate owned instead of individual-owned or managed...since the day that DJs couldn’t choose their own playlist. Of course, control over that is gone. A record company can manipulate the entire system of what commercial America hears. That was much more difficult years ago...Certainly the formation of modern radio was going on back then under the table and still goes on to this day. Payola hasn’t stopped. The people that want to get on get on. And it’s worse now because you have the whole video world and Internet world on top of that. [With] MTV: look at how many records and careers they ‘made’ the first 10 years they were on the air, compared to now. There’s no emphasis on breaking new artists on MTV anymore. The new artist makes [it on] and it’s usually because some label was owed a favor or paid the right person the right amount of money, or they spent $100,000 to make a great video. But that’s not reality. That’s manufactured music.

FAF One of the Country music stations on television has, on Sunday afternoon, a Folk hour program, and they show Folk musician videos. That is the only representative of the genre I ever see. Is that all that is available?

LOUIS To my knowledge, that is all that is commercially available. And that’s a real problem.

FAF Is there any way to address that?

LOUIS Sure. Get on the web and start writing letters to the major ‘Viacoms’ and say, “Why don’t you add a Folk channel to your list of MTVs and VH1s and CMTs?” I mean, it’s all owned by the same company. It’s not like there’s multiple people making decisions. CMT, MTV, VH1 is all one company. One corporate office is making the decisions.

FAF Why do you think they’re making the decisions against Folk music?

LOUIS I don’t think they’re making decisions against Folk music. I think they’re making decisions based on what’s going to sell advertising. If they don’t play Rap, or they don’t play 60s Rock, or they don’t play a certain type of Country: it has nothing to do with the music. It has everything to do with commerce.

FAF So it comes back around to advertising dollars.

LOUIS Of course. When has it not? Because in the 60s people were selling The Byrds and Judy Collins and Peter, Paul & Mary, because that’s what was selling advertising. Just like now: the only time you hear those songs pretty much anymore is in commercials.

FAF So the question is: How do we manage to match advertising dollars with Folk music again?

LOUIS Why don’t we think about having stronger artists...?

FAF Stronger artists?

LOUIS Do you think that our artists necessarily can compete one-on-one with the biggest stars of the day?...Name the artist in our community who can compete on that level... [who] has achieved a level of selling magazines, newspapers and advertising. It’s the way one reaches that level... Have they done anything to move into that realm? You’ve got to reach out for the brass ring or else you don’t have a chance.

FAF And if a Folk musician wants to reach out for the brass ring, what’s the path?

LOUIS The same as for anybody else. You’ve got to be better than everybody else, you’ve got to go to Nashville, New York or L.A. Got to have a major publishing deal or some like relationship that will get you to that level. Our artists do it all the time. But by the time they get to the other side of that world, they’re probably not Folk artists anymore. That doesn’t mean they weren’t, two weeks earlier; doesn’t mean they’re still not. But, unfortunately, Folk isn’t strong [at] marketing. I would like to see that change. It’s not going to change overnight but it’s changing every day. The word ‘Folk’ has become much ‘hipper’ than it was two years ago, especially with young people. And that’s where it has to change. It was young people buying those records in the 60s, the 12-24 age group, that made all those artists’ starts. Old people were buying Sinatra and Jimmy Dorsey and Bing Crosby. They weren’t buying Judy Collins and Donovan. That’s what has to happen again. Young people have to discover our music. Once that happens, the labels, the advertising, the media, everybody that works for them...that will change when young people...

FAF There has been much said about how elementary schools and high schools have dropped music programs in the last 20 years...

LOUIS It definitely hurts. It has an impact on how many people are able to get their foot in the door of music; how many people get that first piano lesson, or that first guitar lesson, or sing in a choir, or how many people get to meet other musicians their age.

It’s come back through outside sources like the band camps and other things that have been done outside the system, just trying to empower. And we see it. Last year, [at] Folk Alliance, the most popular acts in the Conference were all under 20. And that’s probably, with the exception of Nickel Creek, that’s probably the first time that’s happened where the young acts were the ones that got all the media attention.

And that’s not going to be in the artists that are 40 or older. I mean, they’re great, but they don’t write the songs that young artists have the hits with...same with Country, old Country acts: I mean, George Strait, it took a year-and-a-half to get to No. 1 with his last single, because it’s harder and harder because there’s no market...there’ll be no place for a Conway Twitty or a George Jones on the Country charts anymore. It’s so unfortunate, but it’s the reality.

FAF And that is completely different from the way it used to be in Country?

LOUIS No, it’s always been the young acts, the flavor of the month, among the young. The journalists are as guilty if not more guilty than anyone of driving the perception of the youth culture. And that’s just the reality of the situation and it’s never changed. I think Cable TV has taken that and multiplied it faster than it probably should have; the whole computer generation, the Internet generation, and it’s what you put out there for young people to hear.

If there was a channel on TV right next to CMT or MTV that played Folk music, whatever that is, then of course it would be more popular. Of course it would sell more records. Of course there would be more superstar acts coming out of it.

But also over the course of the last 40 years Folk music has developed somewhat of a chip on its shoulder. When an act does become famous and popular, all of a sudden they’re not Folk anymore. Somewhere along the way the words ‘starving’ and ‘Folk’ started to be used together, and that is what hurt the business more than any other single thing.

When artists don’t feel empowered to become bigger, and don’t reach for that stardom, and don’t want that—don’t want the adoring fans, don’t want the records, don’t want the attention—[then] our market is screwed, because the people we’re competing with all want that. And if you don’t want it, how are you going to get it?

Our artists don’t necessarily want to go play that game. Do they want to get dressed up?...Do they want to schmooze their way to the top of the ladder, only to get dumped six months later?

FAF Thank you for your time Louis.

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